Senator Shelby comes out against the auto bailout
Written by Alex on November 13th, 2008Here’s what he said, via Politico:
“The financial straits that the Big Three find themselves is not the product of our current economic downturn, but instead is the legacy of the uncompetitive structure of its manufacturing and labor force. The financial situation facing the Big Three is not a national problem, but their problem. I do not support the use of U.S taxpayer dollars to reward the mismanagement of Detroit-based auto manufacturers in such a way that allows them to continue and compound their ongoing mistakes.”
Damn straight. Let’s hope that more Republicans in the House and Senate grow backbones to fight this thing.
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The only way GM gets saved (besides a bailout) would be if it went to the UAW and laid down the law. A nationwide strike would happen, but if GM were willing to hire new labor, move plants into the non-union south or even Mexico (a more expensive option) they could break the back of the UAW.
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The Big Three need to actually make cars people want too. Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, and VW have been eating away at their market share for decades. They ceded the sedan, compact, and luxury markets decades ago.
The Big Three are doomed to fail because their lack of innovation and bowing to the UAW. A government bailout will only delay their demise. Propping them up would be like trying to prop up the Soviet Union in 1991.
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Ryan you are right on target. Their business model is poor and their economic situation is the result of that along with thier past deals with the UAW. The UAW is a large part of the problem with their current fiscal situation and has to be dealt with. Something all 3 have neglected to do for various reasons over the years. The first $1,300.00 of a GM automobile you buy pays for the healthcare of a retired worker. The market simply can’t support this. They made that deal, along with others, with the UAW and they need to solve it. I understand boths sides of the issue but really is a UAW worker that doesn’t have a job better off than paying for a portion of their benefits? Let the respective parties decide and the chips fall where they may. By-the-way BIG 3, make cars the public WANTS to buy!
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Regardless of their business model with the UAW, the Big Three would not be in such a hole if they made vehicles people wanted. The cost per vehicle of such benefits would be far lower if they sold more cars since demand would increase the number being brought to market.
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I agree but you not only have to compete in style, technology and the likes but price is a huge issue as well. Toyota has a built in cost of $140.00 per car for healthcare for instance vs. the $1,300.00 for a GM model. Thats a huge difference that has to be set right in my opinion for them to become competetive.
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It is hard to fight our wars without our toys. Help support Ford and the Big 3.
Henry Ford, the great industrialist, was busy celebrating his 81st birthday on a very warm July 30, 1944. Allied troops had landed in Normandy the previous month and, though they faced stiff German resistance, they were clearly winning.
At the celebration, Ford visualized what he called ‘great days ahead,’ but only, as he put it, ‘if we apply what we have learned and mix it with plenty of hard work.’ It was Ford’s vision of mass production and its subsequent implementation that had harnessed the industrial might of the United States and had helped make staggering wartime production goals attainable.
Some companies have earned the right to be saved. Ford is one of them.
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Henry Ford is dead and the taxpayer doesn’t owe anyone a living. Ford could make a profit tomorrow if it restructured its union contract to reflect the market rate for wages, not the artificially inflated wages it now pays.
So the real question is would Ford rather go bankrupt or take on the UAW?
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Petition Congress:
http://www.rallycongress.com/no-bailout-for-the-auto-industry/1409/
NO BAILOUT FOR THE AUTO INDUSTRY
Nancy Pelosi, with the help of Barney Frank, wants to bail out yet another failed sector of the economy. It is not government’s role to reward incompetent, overpaid executives pursuing a failed and anachronistic business model. The American auto industry is in trouble because it produces a shoddy, polluting, gas guzzling product at noncompetitive prices driven by trade union benefit packages. It is a waste of taxpayer money to try to shore up an industry that needs to be radically restructured. The Big Three should be allowed to fail and file for reorganization under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. They will not cease to exist, but will be restructured under the supervision of the bankruptcy courts. Congress cannot do a better job than the courts. The courts will supervise the reorganization of the industry without being tempted to reward lobbyists, campaign contributors and unions for their political and financial support.
Congress must allow the economy, existing laws and judicial bodies to resolve the Big Three’s financial problems and not throw more taxpayer money away under a hasty and ill conceived bailout.
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Allowing the industrial base of our country to disappear would be a big mistake in the long run. The UAW is not the problem. They negotiated fairly for their membership who has sacrificed a lot. New wage rates are half of what they were. Health care benefits have been cut. The problem lies in trade agreements that are being used to drive workers standard of living to that of Mexico and China. Is this what we really want?
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Well I can tell you this Mike (nice name BTW), the industrial base of our country doesn’t need to go away, but there is no way it can stay in a country as politically opposed to it as ours is. Do you know that our nation has a 56% cost difference with China and that is WITHOUT factoring in wages? When you have idiotic environmental legislation that costs huge amounts of dollars just to comply with the paperwork, when you have a legal system that skims billions of dollars off the top of corporations a year in punitive damage lawsuits, when you have business taxes that are the second highest in the world then you clearly don’t want an industrial base.
Tell me how you would make cars if you have a 56% higher cost that your competitor doesn’t have? Then factor in union wages that average out at $73.20 per hour that is way higher than the US industrial average. I hate to break it to you, but your labor ain’t worth that. The market sets the rate of wages, not unions. Your labor is worth what it is worth, that is an economic reality that is as firm as gravity. You can ignore it for a while, but when you do, the company that pays the artificially higher wage eventually goes bust which is what is happening to the big three right now.
If you want to save the big three then hire workers at the going rate for labor off the street. If they won’t except that and go on strike, fire them and hire new workers who actually want the job.
“The problem lies in trade agreements that are being used to drive workers standard of living to that of Mexico and China. Is this what we really want?”
Yes. I don’t work for a car company so why should I not be able to buy a cheaper car made in Mexico or Canada if I want to? Why should I be forced to pay a tax, making the imported car more expensive just so some UAW guy can get paid way more than me? That is a government redistribution of wealth and it is theft plain and simple.
The days of union wages are gone forever. They might get a little boost from an Obama presidency, but in the long run economic insanity is a dead end game.
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Let them all file for bankruptcy! A bail out is only going to prolong the issue. A major restructuring of these companies is way past due so that they can compete in the market that exist today and not one that existed 30 to 40 years ago.
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The union along with other entities help create the middle class and in doing so helped workers who did not belong to a union to receive comparable pay. The foreign manufacturers pay their workers a wage comparable to the Big Three wage model for one reason only, to prevent any type of union organization to take place. Unions are good and bad depending on the situation. Spend time in a country without the Labor, Environment, and Safety laws and you will appreciate what protections we as workers take for granted in this country. So by most of the comments noted above, we should allow GM to fail. Okay, lets take that business model and turn to the Government which borrows billions and can’t balance the budget. So maybe we should cut out all unemployment insurance for the states, and cancel the health insurance and pensions of all Federal workers to allow the Government which is mismanaging our tax dollars to try to balance the budget. By 2011 most of GM’s Legacy costs will be gone and in effect, GM will be left with a employee economic model similiar to what the foreign manufacturers give to their employees. Working in a factory on your feet 8 to 10 hours a day building a vehicle or parts is not a job many people can do. Go to Mexico and any South America country and observe. There are groups of well off and the not so well off. There is no middle class. That’s where the United States is headed when the workers don’t have a voice in the economic model.
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I think we just have a fundamental economic difference of opinion. Artificially paying someone a wage that they can’t get anywhere else is never a sustainable model. It ignores reality, the cardinal sin in business.
Union wages and the middle class aren’t the same thing. The vast, vast majority of this nation’s workers that fall into the middle class don’t work for union wages. If you want to work in a blue collar industry then you are going to get paid blue collar wages, it is a choice.
Workers always have a choice in the economic model: don’t work for a wage that is too low for you. The fact that there are tons of people in this country willing to work for lower wages than the union forces on companies is proof that workers are making a choice.
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I can’t understand how anyone would compare a business with the government. Government is NOT a business. It doesn’t produce anything. A business, in this case, Ford or GM produces goods…ie automobiles… If they are paying more to produce those good or services than what the market is willing to bear then they have to bring their cost in line to compete with the business that does. Pretty simple economics to me. And again, NO to any bailout of a busines that can not change its business model or practices that will meet that of what the market is damanding. Thats why we are in the position we are in now is because the market will not bear these cost. The market won’t support the bad loans made by banks as well as Freddie and Fannie and it would support GM, FORD or Chrysler either based on their current cost to produce the goods that they make. You can throw money at it all you like but it will only prolong the failure that will occur. And I ask this of my Union supporting friends…It it better to be in the Union and not have a job because the market cant bear the cost of the product you make or to settle with a contract that will allow your employer to be profitable (dirty capitalist word) and you still make a good wage? Again pretty simple economics 101 here.
The thing I do see in all of this is you will find out rather quickly which of our politicians are in the pocket of the Unions and which are for fiscal responsibility. No one with any economic sense at all could support a bail out of any of the Big 3.
You may take this as a slap toward Unions but it really isn’t. Its a matter of plain common sense. Just happens to involve a business that is run with Union workers.
Does a worker making $40.00 an hour making a product that the market only will buy at $20.00 an hour make any sense to anyone?
Not quite sure how you can claim to be a conservative and support any proposal to bailout any business.
If the market won’t support them then re-organize or go out of business all together. There will spring up another mfg of that same product that will not only make it cheaper but better in the end.
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Senator Shelby
Your position on supporting our auto industry in this time of need is Un-American and you will be labeled as such by your actions.
The need for manufacturing in the country is vital to the security of the country and YOU should be doing every thing you can to defend US manufacturing from foreign interests that would like to take over for the benefit of their countries and citizens
I think you maybe influenced by foreign auto manufacturing in your own state
If you can approve hundreds of billons for the war in Iraq why do you suddenly become
a fiscal watch dog when the industry asks for help at a fraction of the cost?
Senator Shelby you are the “dinosaur” nothing is inevitable stand up and protect our country like a real American and protect our industries and help them flourish so America can continue to be prosperous.
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“I think you maybe influenced by foreign auto manufacturing in your own state . . .”
What is the difference between an American worker employed by GM and an American worker employed by Kia?
Don’t you want foreign companies to open plants in America and employ American workers?
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“Supporting the auto industry in this time of need is Un-American”? Are you really serious? Exactly how did this “time of need” come about? Perhaps because we have manufacturers that are producing products that the market can’t afford?
Let me ask you to consider this….(It should be a quick and easy analysis)…How many Union LEADERS have you seen on television trying to figure out a way to help SAVE the auto industry? Have you seen any temporary wage concessions? Any temporary suspension of contracts? LOL I rather doubt the UAW cares much what happens to FORD, GM or CHRYSLER. If they did and the industry was in such peril as widely reported one would think this would have been one of the first meetings held. But NOPE, lets ask the AMERICAN TAXPAYER to pony up first so that its business as usual. Again, you can loan them 25 billion, 50 billion, hell lets make it easier…give em say $100 trillion dollars…That should do it shouldn’t it? Guess what, no amount of money will change the way they are currently doing business and that is the problem……They are trying to BUY TIME not a SOLUTION because the solution means changing the way they do business. The only way they will change is if they are forced.
I will say this, if the CONGRESS gives or lends them a dime the free market is done in the US. The market is working here or else they wouldn’t be yelling so loud for help to keep doing business as usual.
And for those that are now going from a bailout to talking about a LOAN to the BIG 3…(LOL) If a loan to them is so great how come the UAW won’t loan them the money?
Again, it should be pretty easy to figure out the problem here….
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Mike, Scott Poston
I don’t care about the foreign companies opening operations here I care about them influnaceing our politicians to the point were they are tiring to block
help for own companies and they should get help since these politicians have failed to create the level playing field they say will allow US companies to compete fairly
which
I think can not be done unless you are willing to work for the same wage as the
Workers in the Far East.
If we can spend 10 billion a month on the war on terror we should be able to help
out our largest industry letting the domestic car companies fail will just show the world that Americans can not manage our own affairs we had to step in on the banks and now we need to clean up the auto industry and the finical industry
the wages for executives need to examined they are the ones getting paid to much
Goldman Sachs paid 19 billion in just bonuses last year that is not right
I am not a union supporter but they have made some concessions new hires will start
At much lower wage $12-$15 an hour than before $22 an hour also the union
Will take over the pension plans this is step in the right direction
As far as free markets go you need some regulation because all the crooks take advantage of no regulation and cause the problems we have now
Americans need act more nationalistic remember country first
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What is wrong with you people? Are you so spiteful and full of hate that you cannot think of anyone else but yourselves? Do you only believe the bad things you hear about others?
If you look at the current American auto industry you will see that they have changed, the latest contracts reduced the pay to new employees to equivilant pay that other companies pay.
The cost of medical insurance is something that should be addressed with the medical community. Go to the source if you have a complaint. How can you take something away from a retiree that spent a lifetime to get it, & now need it to survive?
The Quality of the American cars are equal or better than the foreign autos, just check JD Power or any other company that compares autos. Check Consumers Report.
This is a Loan from the Government. It is NOT a handout. It will be paid back with interest. If it is not made the government will be paying out benefits to cover the loss of jobs, the cost of lost pensions, the cost of lost medical coverage.
You talk about letting business help the American economy, well if you don’t help the American Auto companies through this rough time they will not have a chance to support the people. The cost of supporting the people will be put on the backs of the rest of the country.
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Cameron, you could not have said it better. What are these people thinking not wanting to help keep OUR American cars. I am afraid that if they don’t do something to help them WE will fall further into a Depression since it WILL spread nationwide. Senator Shelby is ONLY thinking of himself and HIS state not the country. I would dare someone to drive say a Buick and then a Toyota and compare.
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“The financial straits that the Big Three find themselves is not the product of our current economic downturn, but instead is the legacy of the uncompetitive structure of its manufacturing and labor force. The financial situation facing the Big Three is not a national problem, but their problem. I do not support the use of U.S taxpayer dollars to reward the mismanagement of Detroit-based auto manufacturers in such a way that allows them to continue and compound their ongoing mistakes.”
I am shocked that any sentient being would support the reckless statements of Senator Shelby. How can he assert that the financial woes of the Big 3 are not related to the economic downturn? The Big 3 did not ask for bailouts when the economy was healthy. Car sales have been crippled by the downturn. I am sure you would argue that foreign automakers are operating during the economic downturn and not asking for bailouts, but that is not the case. Foreign governments have provided financial assistance to foreign companies. During the testimony today, Chrysler’s CEO pointed testified that out of 80,000 vehicles sold that only 563 (approximate number) vehicles were financed by sources other than Chrysler financial (unfortunately he did not provide any information as to the percentage of vehicles that are financed by Chrysler financial in a health economy). I have a friend with a 749 credit score who could not get financed on a Cadillac but was able to get financing from BMW (on a more expensive vehicle) so she bought foreign after a lifetime of purchasing and leasing domestic vehicles. If banks will not lend, how can automotive companies sell vehicles. I am perplexed as to how anyone could say that “The financial situation facing the Big Three is not a national problem, but their problem.” This is a ridiculous assertion. If GM or Chrysler fails then supplier companies and auto dealers around the country will go out of business and millions of people will be out of work. If a couple million people lose their incomes, then they will not be able to purchase goods and services and there will be a ripple effect throughout all industries. Even more troubling is that those individuals will not be able to make their house payments and there will be a rash of foreclosures. I am against bailouts, but is imperative to the survival of our country that we bail out the Big 3. I am shocked that so many Republican politicians were willing to support the Paulson “plan” and hand over money to financial companies but will not bailout the Big 3. The Big 3 made horrible management decisions over the past couple decades, but nothing that they did compares to the extremely reckless decisions made by Wallstreet.
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Cameron, Diana, Daniel
What makes you think the American people don’t deserve a depression? They after all have elected these people to office that has caused all of this to happen. They should reap the consequences of their votes.
All of the banks that were failing should not have been given a dime and if they failed so be it. If the auto industry fails, so be it. I welcome a depression with open arms. Maybe after a few years of hardship the ignorant voters of this country will start getting off of their lazy asses and actually begin educating themselves on who these imbeciles are they keep electing to office to screw this country up.
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Sam,
You make valid points about the ignorance of voters. I agree that after a great depression, that the american people (and hopefully our government) will be more conservative and hopefully will not repeat the mistake of relying on credit cards, over leveraging themselves, and spending money that they do not have. I pay cash for my vehicles and have no debt load whatsoever but it was not always that way. At one point I my debt to income ratio was at about 300%. I had to experience the negative consequences of my bad financial decisions in order to reinvent myself. I have also had to lay off an entire work force. Sure, at the time (many years ago), I blamed it on the economy but in hindsight my own mismanagement played a part in it. My point to all this is that yes suffering consequences can lead to people waking up and making better decisions in the future. But, I for one do not want to see the devastation of our country. If the Big 3 fail, then it will be the end of life as we know it.
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I disagree it will be “end of life as we know it.” If they fail, a new automobile company will spring up from the ashes to take their place and do a much better job. That’s how the market works.
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you are all unamerican. this why i hate republicans …break the back of the union, maybe they will relocate to non-union states then we give them the money… even walmart is now allowing unions in CHINA! you and your party are backwards. You all disgust me
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Ok, so according to “john,” WE are “unamerican,” because we don’t want to put taxpayers on the hook for failed companies. Got it.
None of us have any problem with the right to unionize, my friend. The problem is with forced unionization, and unions such as the UAW that demand outrageous pay schemes that make companies unprofitable, so in the end as we are seeing the taxpayer gets screwed. Well, some of us are tired of it.
There’s no such thing as “non-union states.” There are such things as states that allow unions to force membership on a company’s workers, why aren’t you calling these states unAmerican? Shouldn’t someone have the right to work without being forced to join a union? Look at the map on this link: http://senateconservatives.com/2008/12/10/auto-workers-should-have-the-right-to-work/
Tell me that doesn’t say a whole lot? Employees of foreign auto companies make a good living without having to join a ridiculous union, and its outrageous that some states allow such union thuggery to exist.
Quote from the SCF link:
“It is no coincidence that the healthy automakers in the South happen to be located in Right to Work states. In these states, unions have to serve the true interests of their workers or suffer membership losses. The policy of compulsory unionism has allowed the UAW to hold its workers hostage and ruin these great American companies.”
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John I only allowed this brainless comment of yours so that everyone could see how intellectually bankrupt you union thugs are.
No one owes you a living. You have to earn it. No one owes you a wage, if another man is willing to work for less then he gets the job, not you.
You don’t believe in freedom, you don’t believe in America and your union ideology is a holdover from Karl Marx.
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Why does Senator Shelby hate american manufacturers ?
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Why do you make such inane comments?
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What is the constitutionality of a bailout? THERE IS NO CONSTITUTIONALITY!
I do not buy into this economic nationalism bull. We as a society should not reward failure. The Big Three has been failures for decades. This recession just finished them off.
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Our car companies are crippled until they bring wages in line with Japan. The UAW has more to lose than anyone this time. If they don’t bend they will break.
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In normal free markets a company runs into trouble and can’t pay it’s bills, it needs to reorganize, file chapter 11 etc and that’s fine. This is not a normal market and the Automobile industry is not a normal market place. First of all we are on the edge of a depression. Every theory breaks down at the extreme and free market capitalism is no exception. Although allowing the auto industry to colapse will lead to its eventual rebirth it will be at the cost of massive social and economic dislocation.
Secondly Governments around the world participate in massive intervention in the Auto industry to ensure national advantage. So the auto indsutry is not a free market place. Thirdly we pump massive amounts of taxpayer money into all sorts of industries. eg defense, sugar subsidies (2 billion every year), taxpayer saviour Shelby thought it was great to pump over $165,000 of taxpayer money into every job created by foreign carmakers in Alabama. You could go on and on.
While we are all wringing our hands over this $35billion the treasury is running around sprikling trillions in cash and guarantees like snowflakes in winter on banks that still won’t lend (just try getting an SBA loan right now). How about that for bate and switch.
Lets come up with the money and stop with the partisan play books. Stick up for American jobs and American companies for once.
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The wrapping of flag by some bothers me.
How about these companies betraying American values?
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Ah, the ole “everyone else is doing it so we should too” tactic. Look, we oppose sugar subsides and every other aspect of the TARP bailout, we oppose tax breaks for foreign car companies that want to build a plant in Alabama and we oppose government intervention into the free markets.
We are intellectually consistent on this issue and aren’t going to be changing our minds. This auto bailout is a huge payoff to unions that have forced companies into paying their workers artificially higher wages than they would otherwise earn.
This isn’t a partisan play book, this is economic reality. You don’t deserve $73/hour, because without the union threat of a strike and a walkout you couldn’t otherwise extort that kind of wage out of anyone.
You can’t make a competitive product if you have such a massive wage disparity with OTHER AMERICAN WORKERS who are building Toyotas, Kias and even BMWs for far less down south.
BTW, how much does the union pay political operatives like you and john, daniel, diana, cameron, richard ott, mike and dave to sit in front of a computer all day and type out your arguments on blogs?
You guys are pretty transparent, all your names are uncapitalized, all of the arguments have sections you didn’t write and are clearly cut and pasted in among your own comments.
So I guess the question is, how big is the GM and Ford account at Orr & Boss and why should the taxpayer subsidize you? I mean it is true isn’t it that you will directly benefit financially from a bailout.
http://www.orrandboss.com/clients/default.asp
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My comments will not be published?? OH I see freedom of speech does not apply here?? Figures!!
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Freedom of speech does apply… your comment(s) probably got caught in our spam filter, likely because you had links in your comment. Try again.
I looked through our spam list and didn’t see anything by you, unless it got buried by real spam comments that I don’t feel like wading through.
Like I said, try again. However, since you are “Buy American,” I’m sure we’ll be bound to disagree with what I expect to be protectionist rhetoric.
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Maybe our union filter picked it up. You guys keep spamming this one post with inane, unoriginal comments that are getting to be beyond annoying. While we consciously didn’t block your comment I for one am glad that I don’t have to read anymore idiotic nonsense from Local whatever up in Michigan.
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No country in the world except the US under Republican rule considers protecting their industry/economy/technology as protectionist rhetoric. All countries, except the US Republicans, consider such ‘protection’ as pragmatic and instinctual (Darwinism if you will … opps I said a bad word According to the Flat World of Republicans).
Republicans favor foreign companies over American companies. American companies that have and would continue to support our economy, infrastructure and middle class. Companies that made us the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world. But like the song goes Bye Bye Miss America Pie.
We are headed towards an economic abyss. Soon to be in like England: Has-beens.
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To Mike:
I dealt with union member; some it was positive some of it negative. Most of the negative was the result of union mismanagement.
The vast majority of the members served in WW2, Korea and Viet Nam. Their sons and daughters are the ones serving in Iraq. In the scheme of things their income isn’t what’s creating the problems.
Why is it that you don’t condemn the corporate criminals that made millions yet brought this country to its financial knees? Why aren’t you condemning the law breakers that have robbed billions from people’s savings? Why? Because it’s the Republican way to always pick on the little guy.
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Does anybody else want to take their time to respond to this clown? Because I don’t have the energy for it, I’ve beaten this dead horse plenty and “Buy American,” and the rest of his ilk refuse to even act like they can read the words myself and others put on the screen.
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YellowStreak you Lost for words?? Its because there is nothing logical or factual that you can state to defend your weasely un-American opinions.
JackAss of the year goes to , not you, youre just a parrotting what you’ve been told. No the award goes to Shelby and the rest of the Import Senators
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Buy American, you disgust me. You are a marxist. I don’t have to buy a shitty, expensive product just because it was made in America. You want me to buy your craptastic cars? Make a better, cheaper car. You sound like a little girl whining about why no one likes her.
Economic logic always wins. In the end the American auto industry will die and it was communists like you who killed it.
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“Nothing logical or factual that you can state…”
That’s right, the map of right-to-work states that I linked to, which is completely factual and shows where successful (read: foreign) auto companies have manufacturing and employ tons and tons of happy American workers free from the UAW thugs, THAT was a complete falsehood. Grow up and quit whining.
“Senator Shelby and the rest of the Import Senators…”
Hey that’s cute, you came up with a name for them and everything! Instead of thinking of the Dying 3, and the corrupt union thugs that are choking it to death BECAUSE they are located in states that allow such compulsory union membership thuggery to happen (explain to me how THAT is American), why don’t you think of the American consumer? Why is the American consumer, in your eyes, forced to buy a weaker product when he can buy a better, more reliable, cheaper one? Why do you insist on this categorization of industries not by quality of products, and the goods that consumers choose to buy in a market (I thought the economy was for the consumer? Why do I hear crickets from you?…), but instead qualifying it based on the nationality of the owner(s) of a company? It’s silly, it’s insulting to the consumer, it’s insulting to American workers who work for good caliber foreign auto companies within the United States, it’s insulting to freedom and free market ideals, and it is insulting to the very fabric that makes up the American economy.
Quit trying to sell your idiotic, nonsensical rambling and try giving freedom a shot. Quit trying to compel American consumers to buy products they don’t want to, or to bailout companies with taxpayer dollars when the companies have FAILED.
Seriously, I am tired of this crap. Quit whining to us, and start whining at the people responsible for this: the management who run the Dying 3, the unions that have the Dying 3 in a chokehold, and the non-right-to-work states that allow compulsory union membership to occur.
I have always been a fan of the Right to Work Committee and against compulsory unionization, but this whole domestic auto industry episode has made me a much more passionate advocate for the Right to Work initiatives.
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LOL..YellowStreak and Mike from F Troop are typical dumb economic Anarchists and the world loves you for it. It was quoted in an article about trading with the US that ‘You’ll get filthy rich by over estimating the stupidity of the American people’. I think we know it was you clowns they were talking about. “Free market”, “RTW”: gads you are either really stupid or naive. Mostly stupid and lacking education because you make this a simple union and customer issue which it is not.
Dont know what you guys do for a living but I bet, in fact I’m sure that foreign countries can do it better…. Bet me and lose!!!
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Buy American you just don’t get it do you?
Economics is about reality. Gravity is about reality. You can dislike gravity. You can pass laws against gravity. You can even stand in the middle of the room jumping up and down screaming about how gravity doesn’t exist and you CAN fly.
But you can’t fly can you. Gravity exists and so do the laws of economics. You may not understand them, but they affect you just as they do me, the unions and the Chinese.
You can get paid a union wage, you can pass laws that mandate a union wage and you can even pass laws that don’t allow other people to pay LESS than a union wage but it all comes to an end sooner or later when the money runs out as it is now.
Your costs are X and your competitors make a better product in the USA for less than X. You are pissed because most people in this country won’t buy your expensive shit so now you are going to try and steal their tax dollars (again) to force them in a round about way to buy your product.
Fuck you. If you were in the same room as me and tried to pick my pocket I would break your face. As it is, you are using political pressure in Washington and have picked my pocket via tax dollars and even more federal debt.
I don’t see what you are so upset about, you won! You union thugs have strong armed the president into borrowing billions of dollars from overseas and giving it to you so you can continue to make more expensive shit that people don’t want.
If you are over here just to gloat, go to hell. Eventually there will be nothing left for you to steal and you’ll have burned through the last of the bailout money and when that day comes you’ll have have to face economic reality like the rest of us do everyday.
Gravity is real and you may not feel it yet, but you came close recently and it scared the shit out of you didn’t it? Get ready for another dose buddy and remember this isn’t me doing this to you, it is just the way the world works.
PS. “Mike from F Troop” I assume is about the picture of General Patton. Attacking me is one thing, but trashing General Patton that is low.
22
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First of all, Mike, I agree with everything you said.
Second of all, “Buy American,” you really do yourself and your cause(s) no good by just spewing back insults that, when it comes down to it, really don’t make any sense.
Seriously, you mentioned “RTW” (I assume that meant Right to Work) and “free market,” I suppose to act as if by mentioning them you could claim the ability to read the words that I put on the screen, yet you do nothing to refute my or anyone else’s arguments.
Like Mike said, Buy American, congratulations, you and the union thugs won. You got yet another round of protection from powerful people in government. So why the hell are you still around here? If you are here just to insult and gloat and be a jackass (in fact, I now nominate you for Jackass of the Year for the hell of it), then go away. If you want to have reasonable argument and debate, fine, but we both know that that is far from the truth don’t we.
So long, and try learning some fundamentals of economics and liberty.
23
AM
You guys blow nothing but hot air and smoke. Where are the facts and figures and proof that the rest of the world participate in a free market and are not protectionist?? Gee how about balance of trade: seen our numbers lately??
Yes Mike from F Troop there is gravity and most of it comes from your sucky naive and uneducated opinions. Ever read Freckick List? “Its not the number of apple eaters that is important its who owns the orchards that important”
As for the F@K comment ..lol…It probable turned YellowStreak on but did nothing for me.
After readin everyones comments it seems no one is interested in saving American from its decline or the GOP for that matter. Nope, you guys are just interested in protecting your change purses. So I will leave you guys to continue with your circle jerk..
23
AM
“You guys blow nothing but hot air and smoke.”
The projection is strong in this one!
“Where are the facts and figures and proof that the rest of the world participate in a free market and are not protectionist??”
Over the past several decades, lowering trade barriers and easier trade across international borders has been a trend worldwide. Ironically enough (maybe to people like you, that is), this has been coupled with economic growth worldwide.
Now, as this Washington Post article indicates, this trend is reversing as countries (including the United States) react to the financial crisis by adopting protectionist measures, which will only worsen the financial strain: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/21/AR2008122102171_pf.html
Here’s a dandy quote from that article, from someone at the Brookings Institution, which is a liberal think tank:
“Exporting firms tend to be innovative, dynamic and capable of generating good job growth,” said Eswar S. Prasad, a professor of trade policy at Cornell University and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. “If trade restrictions caused by trade wars shut them down, their suppliers shut down, job losses get worse, and you can quickly have a spiraling downward effect on the entire economy.”
The dangerous results of protectionism, not just in the United States but in other countries worldwide, are proven historically, and are real economic results. You want to keep spewing worthless tripe, be my guest. But as we’ve indicated to you, you can’t ignore the laws of economics just as you can’t ignore the law of gravity. Keep bitching and moaning all you want, and projecting on us that we aren’t providing any facts or figures, and those of us who appreciate economic reality will continue to fight for liberty and policies that make sense. Good day.
23
PM
You’re blowing More smoke with your Naivety which seems to be sincere.. Why would you think that quoting the Washing Post would have any creditability?
First of all Free trade concepts presume free floating currencies; however currencies such as China’s and Japan’s are not free floating, while others may be manipulated by governments.
Shit I could on and on but I know I’m talking to someone hypnotized with demagogy.
If you been selected to save the GOP, the Democrats are laughing with gratitude.
Dude, try thinking outside the box that they have put you in.
Try THINKING AMERICAN
23
PM
Well, according to you, quoting the “Washing Post” (whatever that is), just to show an article showing pretty common economic consensus on the merits of free trade, doesn’t have “creditability.” (again, whatever that is)
I’d be upset, if you could use proper grammar. Actually, I can gather what you are trying to claim, but still, not upset. I don’t know what planet you are on, but free trade concepts (that is, the absence of trade barriers such as tariffs, export subsidies, regulations, quotas, etc) do not assume universal free-floating currency exchange rates. The Forex market (Foreign Exchange, aka the system of trading of various currencies, for the uninitiated) is indeed an important thing to study in International Economics, but to claim that free trade requires free floating currency trade is simply not true.
Care to prove me wrong?
Yeah you could go on and on, and you’d still be wrong. I don’t know how you can claim on one hand to have a superior understanding of the fundamentals of economics (and free trade is very, very fundamental), and on the other hand argue for unadulterated protectionist trade policy.
“Try THINKING AMERICAN.”
I guess your notion of thinking “American” is quite different from mine; when I think “American,” I think of freedom and free-market economics, not compulsory unionization and forcing taxpayers to subsidize failing business models. Oh well.
23
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Allow me to clarify a point - yes, some countries (such as China) monkeying around with their currency can amount to an unfair advantage for their exports, which affects the U.S. traded goods as well.
Obviously, meddling such as this in monetary policy should not lead to such disparities. Which is why we on this site opposed many actions of the Federal Reserve in our own country that weaken our dollar.
You have somewhat of a good point, but not really. Because if you want to respond to China’s actions with their currency with protectionist policy at home, this will only provoke a trade war - and this is exactly what is happening worldwide right now, as protectionist policies are being adopted around the globe. As I originally stated, this will only further the financial contraction we are now in, not help it.
So your point is pretty much a moot one - because the only conclusion to make from your statement is that we should engage in international trade warfare, because gosh darn it if China manipulates their currency to favor their trade, we should be able to do the same. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and the domino effect of 100+ wrongs, that being of protectionist policies in many many countries, will soon be seen in the deepening of the financial strains on our domestic and worldwide economy.
24
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I am done talking to this fool. Someone else can take over if they care to, but this is like casting pearls before swine.
24
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Mike from F troop: Swine? Why thank you. Anytime an American traitor calls me names I feel proud. You need to remove Patton’s picture and replace it with Hideki Tojo. Its the person you really honor now.
As for YellowStreak: Someone cut a hole in your head and pooped in so much demagogy that you argue from both sides of your mouth.
You also seem to promote the chichen shit policy simlar to Chamberlain’s policy of appeasement to avoid having to face the problem.
Close to 600,000 more Americans filed for unemployment this month. Grow some balls dude. We are in the middle of a trade war and we’re losing fast.
Reply with something that helps America win the war not your Lala smile and be happy crap…
24
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You think calling someone a traitor is going to help you win in argument?
Wow.
Nothing I stated was demagogic. It was all standard International Economics, which you can learn in any such class in an Economics program at any university, as I have.
Nobody wins in a trade war, which is something that you don’t seem to grasp. America can’t “win” the war, and contributing to it is only to the detriment to the United States economy.
I’m done arguing with this fool as well.
25
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The GOP can’t be saved. For to many years the Republican party has turned its back on working men and women.They cling to policies that help ship jobs out of this country while letting other countries use the US as a dumping ground with unfair trade deals.I am not against free trade but it must be fair trade.As far as unions they are needed.Union employees make more in wages and benefits this in turn props up wages for non union workers which by the way pumps money and tax dollars into the economy.Republicans are working to hard to go back to slave wages.Getting rid of unions,Osha,Davis bacon act does this country no good.What union brought down wall st.The answer is none it was
deregulation. Did you know that
Toyota has a five year plan to cut wages in these southern states.Their wage are tied to union autoworkers about 3.00 an hour less right now.Toyota wants to pay an average in the area of their plants in Alabama its about 11.00 an hour. I guess the Toyota Republicans failed to mention this.So keep turning your back on working people in this country there are millions of us and we vote.Don,t listen to what these Republicans are saying find out what their not telling you or their will be no republican party in 2012.
29
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To David:
You are wasting your time here. As the saying goes “You cant fix stupid”.
The Republican Party has lost its priority: America. When it comes to economics they preach free trade idiocies that only the US follows but the rest of the world ignores or takes advantage of.
For YellowStreak: Its the correct noun for Mike from F Troop___
traitor>> [C] DISAPPROVING
a person who is not loyal or stops being loyal to their own country.